||[Dec. 7th, 2006|04:16 pm]
A while back, I was thinking about how sex was talked about. (Warning: everything that follows could be a(n) (over)generalization.)|
Guys talk about "scoring", "getting some", and such, but they don't talk about "Oh, I took that lady to the moon and back!"
Much of my adult life, I've felt that there's a certain class of men who view sex as dirty and nasty; I've felt it most strongly from men who seemed most worshipful of women. I just got the feeling (and I admit it's subjective) that many of them felt like women were wonderful, beautiful creatures "because they allow us guys to do these horrible things to them, but make us happy about it." This, my unfair, cynical, and brutal mind insists, is usually translated as "because they produce babies".
Now, I admit it's subjective and possibly unfair, but it's still a strong feeling I get, that some guys have a bit of self-loathing about sex. Maybe just "it's dirty and a tiny bit shameful", or maybe worse... but I think there's a lot of at-least-low-level bad feeling about sex.
And sex is also seen as something degrading by some people. There's the virgin/whore dichotomy, slut shaming, and the basis of a fair amount of homophobia and heterosexism.
It's probably incredibly stupid that I haven't seen the connection, but... how many people think these are all the same problem? That if we could wave a magic wand and make the self-loathing disappear, a huge chunk of the thought of "sex is degrading" would disappear as well?
Guys, I'd appreciate your perspective especially, because you might have more direct experience of this.
2006-12-08 01:37 am (UTC)
Hm. I dunno. I have some self-loathing, even sexual self-loathing (I'm too icky, etc.), but sex itself doesn't feel degrading. Do you suppose it would be degrading if you hated yourself and were doing it *to* someone rather than having it done to *you*? Or if you didn't hate yourself except that you were doing it with someone you felt was somehow below you?
2006-12-08 01:39 am (UTC)
OK, wait. SEX isn't degrading, but I can get icked out and self-recriminating when I think someone doesn't like or respect or, most of all, really WANT me. And if I was doing it all the time on the assumption that I was getting something from someone they might or might not really want to give, I think I'd be in a pretty permanent state of ick about sex.
I don't know..it seems pretty complex as you could be describing (overgeneralising too) doms' attitudes towards subs, or sadists toward masochists...but that could well come from the originating heterosexual thing.
I wonder what gay men think?
I hope some blokes reply, too
IANA guy (as you may have noticed), but I've been on intimate terms with more a few guys who seemed to think sex was disgusting, at least when they weren't in the throes of it, to the point of being grossed out by their own bodily fluids or feeling compelled to jump in the shower as soon as they were done ( which always made me feel as if they want to wash my girl-cooties off).
In my memory, it's all shaped like "I want this horrible, disgusting thing *so* much, I have to have it, you've got to give it to me ... and if you do, then you're horrible and disgusting, too."
FWIW, I've been involved with guys who were most thoroughly delighted by sex, but were still a bit less-than-thrilled by bodily fluids, and would wash/wipe/shower immediately after sex to avoid drippage. My impression was never that they had a problem with sex (in some cases, that idea was utterly laughable!), but more that such minor squicks were in keeping with other aspects of their personality (eg a dislike of getting hands dirty, or a dislike of sensations of wetness or gooiness on the skin, or stuff like that).
Good point, but the guys I was talking about did those things with a certain attituude - and sometimes words to go with it - that strongly suggested shame/disgust with the whole business.
Human sexuality is THE most bizzare aspect of humanity. Emotions and feelings of all sorts, for every reason, translate into sexual contact.
y and nasty; I've felt it most strongly from men who seemed most worshipful of women. I just got the feeling (and I admit it's subjective) that many of them felt like women were wonderful, beautiful creatures "because they allow us guys to do these horrible things to them, but make us happy about it."
I've found that, often, they're not just "allowing" us to do these things out of the goodness of their hearts. Sometimes they enjoy them as well. Or, they enjoy the fact that their partners are happy. Very complex stuff.
In relationships, I think that men are more fragile emotionally than most people think. This can and often does manifest itself in sexual self-doubt or self-loathing. I have more than my fair share of self-doubt. It's not dirty or shameful for me, but a question of competence. If that makes any sense.